From London Back to Brisbane: Life Lessons with Saia Fainga’a

A few weeks ago, I caught up with popular Red and Wallaby hooker Saia Fainga’a. Saia and his twin brother Anthony were a key part of the Reds squad from 2009-2016. Both him and his brother helped catapult the Reds to the Super Rugby championship in 2011.

We caught up about a lot of things over Zoom. (Thanks to Saia for taking time out, during his families day at the beach!) If you’ve ever enjoyed watching the Fainga'a twins play and/or supported them as people, you’ll enjoy reading this interview!

Anthony and Saia wave to the crowd after beating
New South Wales is 2012

First of all, how’s life been back in Brisbane for the last few months?

I’ve been here here for 2 weeks, after spending 2 weeks in quarantine and.. in winter in London, you forget how lovely Brisbane is. The people, you know, you can wear shorts in winter.. right now I’m wearing a singlet! I love being back in Queensland. It’s probably one of the reasons I was so successful here, because I loved it.

Since I’ve been home, I’ve absolutely loved it.

For many years, you played on the same team as your twin brother Anthony. What was it like playing in seperate countries, from 2017 until now?

That’s a tough one, because our whole career, we decided we would never not play with each other and in 2017 we made the decision, purely because of money, for me to go to London and for him to go to Japan. I don’t know if it was the worst decision I made, obviously we thought it was better for our families, but do I think it was the right decision? I don’t know.

Whenever we played together for the Reds, I thought that culturally, we brought different things and we played a lot better. If I wasn’t doing so well on the field, or off the field, I’d always have someone to check me and put me in line, but yeah, it’s been very tough being away, for three and a half years now. And for me personally to see him have so many head knocks and concussions, it’s been bad to see him, he’s still getting delayed symptoms, he doesn’t really function that well, and it’s sad, because I see this tough person that would put his body on the line no matter where and then to not be there for the last two years has been a bit sad.

I don’t know if it was a mistake not going to Japan. We had a motto, wherever we go, the money will come, because we’re going to play well. If you don’t play well, obviously it doesn’t, but that was always our mentality. We also had a saying, you can’t worry and trust at the same time. I didn’t trust the process. Getting back to my fundamentals, I wasn’t believing in what I was preaching and for me that was a little bit sad. It’s all good now, he’s obviously retired and me going up there has gone well, but getting back to your question, has it been tough, it’s been very tough. And would I change it? Yes I would. I’ve had a lovely time in London! But I would still rather have been playing for the Reds.

How did people tell you apart from your brother, before you grew your hair?

That’s a good question! It’s funny now - I’m just a fat twin [laughs.] We are identical twins and until we were about nine or ten, we looked exactly the same and I just got a little bit fatter. So the reason I have long hair is when people ask how to tell the difference, I didn’t want people to say “one’s fat and the other one’s skinny”. I’d rather be called “the person with long hair” than “the fat twin” [laughs.]

My sister is curious, how long does it take to braid your hair?

If Anthony’s feeling kind, it’ll take him 10 minutes and he’ll do it gently and do it properly. But most of the time, he’s pretty rough and he pulls it and shoves it and takes he takes his anger out before the game and it takes around 15-20 minutes. When I was playing in London, I had to get my wife to do it and it was definitely not the best routine, that’s for sure.

Most people have a routine, and for me, it doesn’t matter if I have a 3pm or 7pm game, I wake up, have two pieces of toast and some cereal or something, but then I’ll sleep and won’t eat all day. I’ll sleep right up until when I have to go to the game, I’ll meet in the changing room, have a meeting, get my hair done and have a stretch, then I know exactly what I’m doing.

Because I’ve done it for so many years, any changes have made it tricky.

You first played Super Rugby in 2006, at the age of 19. What was it like making your debut at such a young age?

When I made my debut, there was almost no-one playing at my age. And also, I was playing in a team, full of super-stars. So our back line was George Gregan, Stephen Larkham, Matty Giteau, they had Clyde Rathbone, Mark Gerard in the center, it was fully stacked. You know, in the forward pack, we had Radike Samo, George Smith, Mark Chisholm, these celebrities, literally thirteen out of fifteen players were Wallabies - and starting Wallabies - and I was in awe going to training.

I was literally feeling sick every day, because I was so nervous. But I think that was one of the best things to happen to me, because they were so professional. I think they’d won the Super Rugby cup in 2004 and during 2005 and 2006, I was a part of the program.

Was I scared? Yep. I made my debut in South Africa, in Cape Town and it was a sold out crowd. I don’t know what Laurie Fisher was thinking, but he put me on fo the last fifteen minutes and I had a line-out throw… and Cape Town is one of the loudest stadiums. I couldn’t hear the line-out call, I threw it into the back of one of the players… and that was the start of my Super Rugby career! I was nervous, but it was good though.

What was your favourite moment, playing for the Queensland Reds?

I think everyone can answer that one. When we won against the Crusaders [in 2011], it was a dream come true. And to be a part of it the whole year and be a part of the journey. Not just the final, but the three weeks leading up to that. So being at the top of the ladder,  playing the Auckland Blues at home [for the semi-final], then we had State of Origin the week after, three sell out games in a row, it was just amazing. It was a great environment, the atmosphere in the lead up. Holding up the trophy was fine, but the actual lead up was the best “moment”.

What is something you learnt during 2011 that have helped throughout the rest of your career?

Ooh. Don’t take winning for granted. I think for me, we had a culture where we couldn’t loose. So, every game people came and watched, Suncorp became our “fortress” and we took the crowds, for granted.

You’re a loyal fan, you’ve been with us through the good times, the bad times and the terrible times. And what I take from 2011, we had a lot of people on the bandwagon, but it’s a privilege to have people like you support someone like myself and support the Reds as a whole. 

I think for me, as a player, we did take the crowds for granted. That’s one thing I’ve learnt since then, make sure, it doesn’t matter who they are, there are lifetime members who’ve been there from the start, so never take them for granted.

You played in every single game that year. Did you ever have another injury free year, besides 2011?

To be honest, I’m very robust, I hate to say it, I get injured more during pre-season than during the season. I enjoy playing rugby, I hate training and I hate running, obviously that’s part of my job… most seasons I’ve done pretty well. Usually I don’t get injured that much during the season. Besides my ribs, in 2015, I got picked up in the scrum and snapped I think three ribs and that made me miss the World Cup.  I don’t remember another time that I had really big injuries.

What first inspired you to play rugby?

My Dad loved rugby league. We started playing when we were four years old and because we were very good at it, when we were around year five or six - about to go into high school, my father got approached by a school principal and the sports-master said “would you like to go to a rugby union school”? And they offered to help out with scholarships and things like that. We got offers from other schools and clubs in Sydney, but my father said we had to stay together and there’s five boys, mind you. And all of the schools said no, bar one! And so we ended up going to Saint Edmunds college in Canberra. Ever since then, we made the transition into school boy rugby.

Who were your rugby heroes growing up, or when you first started playing professionally?

I think I was quite lucky, because one of my heroes was George Smith, cos he made things look so easy. And when I met him, he was just an awesome bloke. When you meet someone who’s your idol and they’re an even better bloke and they become one of your good mates, he’s still a hero. He was just a genuine, kind person. So that’s one of my mantras that I live by, treat people how you want to be treated. If you’re not having a great day, don’t take it out on other people, because you wouldn’t like to be treated like that.

He was one of the people that was so loving and kind and he made time for a young school kid coming in, he’d always shake my hand and say hello. So he was my idol.

Is there any chance that we’ll see you playing in Australia anytime soon?

I would like to play for the Reds and finish off there. Not just to get my 100th cap, but also, I think personally, the Reds have a great team and I think I could add value, possibly in a leadership role. I see the potential that they have. They’ve got some great kids and I feel that I can add value and add something to them. They’ve got amazing hookers up there, Alex Mafi, playing outstanding, they’ve got Paenga-Amosa, some of these guys are outstanding. I wouldn’t be coming in to take over positions, or try and push for them, but I’d come and try and push those guys and make them better players. That would be my role.

Thank very much for taking time to catch up Saia!

Thank you so much for having me mate. I really appreciate you asking me well though-out questions. I appreciate you getting in touch with me and like I said before about taking things for granted, I never once took the support that you had for me for granted, thanks for having me.

Catching up with Dan Crowley

I was lucky enough to catch up over Zoom with former Reds and Wallabies prop and two time World Cup champion Dan Crowley! I enjoyed hearing his thoughts about the current game, our awesome Reds team and even his advice for rugby players that want to become World Cup holders themselves. I am positive you’ll enjoy reading our conversation!

Hey Dan, Thanks for making time to catch up. How many old rugby games have you watched over the last few months?

Ah Tom actually, I’ve never been a person to really go over all the old rugby matches. My son, who’s also called Tom, he’s into watching a heap of different ones and is very quick to point out where I made mistakes.

It’s an interesting time for the sport right now. What’s your perspective on the future of rugby and what we need to do, moving forward?

That’s a big question, I wish I had all the time to answer it. I think out of a crisis, as Winston Churchill said, there’s opportunity that comes out of it. I think the opportunity from rugby’s perspective, is hopefully to go back, reset and really look at where we’ve come from, what we do well, what we can take from that and do better. Over a period of time, I think Australian rugby in general has been a bit like in a frog in a pot of water that boils, gets warmer and warmer and it’s not until it’s boiling that it realises it has a problem. You can tinker around the edges little by little, but we haven’t made the big changes that we’ve needed to make and as a result, we are where we are now.

But if we can peal it back and look at where we’ve come from… Others have said if the Wallabies are going strong, the rest of the country will go strong. I think it’s actually the other way round. I think if club rugby is strong across the country, then our state rugby and our provinces are going to be strong and if our provinces are going to be strong, then our Wallabies will be strong.

I think that’s where we’ve lost our way. So I’m hoping that we can put our focus back into making club rugby strong and as a result of that, our Wallabies can get back to winning. 

What excites you the most, about the Queensland Reds right now?

As Reds lovers, we can be a bit impatient, but as lot of people have said, we’ve got a great crop of young fellas coming through. It’s a pity we’ve had a stop in playing, but if you have a look at a number of these young players coming through and they are getting a grasp of what it takes to win football, but also to win tight games of rugby. In the past, they’ve lost by that last try, the last 10 minutes, the last 3 points, where as they’re starting to turn that around and actually do that to other sides. As they say, if they can keep that unit of guys together, I think that we will have a good team, not only this year, but I think we’ll start to see in the next couple of years these guys who have got that 3-4 or 5 years of experience, they’ll really start to gell and be a good team.

You played 125 games for the Reds. What’s your favourite on-field memory, from your days playing for Queensland?

I don’t know if on-field was the best memories, I think that the best memories for me were after the game being in the shed. I say that because being in the group of 20 men out on the paddock, giving it their all, knowing when you got back in the shed, whether you won or you lost, whether you were happy or not, being there and knowing you got in the battle and coming back in, that was the best part of it. When you’re playing, you didn’t really get much time to think “how good is this”. You always just sort of get your breathe and get to the next part of the game.

At the time, I didn’t appreciate the opportunity and how privileged we were. The opportunity to go around the world, not only with your work, but with the work that you love doing and with a group of mates. And I think at the time, sometimes you don’t take into account how lucky you are to do that. But the older you get, the more you’ve been away, the more you realise how privileged you were.

What was it like playing, while the rugby world was transitioning into the “professional era”?

Dan published a book with this title
in 2006

It was an interesting time. Especially during the time when there was a lot of talk in back alleyways and meetings about whether or not you were going to stay with the Australian Rugby Union or whether you were going to go to the WRC - the World Rugby Corp. It was very close at that time - I think rugby came within a whisker of going to WRC. It would be interesting to see what would have happened, if it did go down that path as an international game. In the transition across to professionalism, I think it’s easy in hindsight to say it could have been done differently. Rugby could have looked at how League and other professional games have done it and taken a leaf out of their book, instead of working it out ourselves.

For me personally, it was an interesting time, because I had full-time work and I thought “I’m only an injury away from not playing rugby again”. So I said I’m going to hold down a full-time job and play rugby as well, whereas other people gave up their work to focus purely on rugby. I’m very happy I went down that path. Obviously, in this day and age, the commitment required as a professional footballer is a lot more than it was for us, but still I’d like to see that little bit of opportunity for professional guys to be involved in the business world, to give them a bit more of a kick-off. 

I won’t ask you about your job as an undercover cop, because I know that’s a secret. But.. what was it like balancing work and rugby?

It wasn’t designed that way - I actually finished with the police in ’95, I started a business throughout that period, which is the business I’ve still got now.

On that front, there’s so many business’s out there that would welcome with open arms the guys if they said “I want to work X amount of hours per week” to understand what you guys do, before they eventually finish playing rugby. I think it’s really important before they go into the world - and it might take em’ two or three starts before they actually know what they’re passionate about, besides what they were passionate about before, which is footy and then transition into something else, in the business world. A lot of guys struggle to know what their next phase of life is going to be. I think it’s a good precursor, even if it’s for free, just to understand what they enjoy and what they don’t enjoy.

What originally inspired you to play rugby?

Well, my parents came from England many many years ago, back in the 50s and I’ve got two older brothers that both played rugby… So when I was around eight years old, two of my good mates were playing for Souths and they dragged me down to the under-8s. That was where my rugby started and I loved it. I was fortunate to play with some great guys and then make my way into a couple of rep teams. I played with Souths all the way through to when I was around thirty-five I think.

What is your greatest rugby memory, in general? Feel free to include anything from your debut for the Wallabies against the Lions, through to the two world cups that you won for Australia.

I think, getting to tell your old man that your picked for the Australia team, that was pretty special. That’s probably a highlight for me from a rugby perspective. On the field, I was involved in the World Cups, but I wasn’t one of the major players in those areas. So playing with some fantastic players and saying “I know those guys” has always been really good. And off the field, to say you’ve met people literally from the Queen, Nelson Mandela, Princess Di, some big names, all from rugby! That’s the beauty of our international game. Winning World Cups is fantastic. But it’s going to the dinner after the 1999 World Cup with your mates, it’s pretty special. It’s a memory that you don’t forget.

What’s one piece of advice for rugby players that one day hope to hold that World Cup?

Good question. By best advice is keep on plugging away. You don’t have to be the best player, it’s the person that’s willing to keep forging ahead and keep doing what others won’t do.

There’s plenty of other guys that are a lot more talented and a lot more skilled that have gone before me when I was playing, but they weren’t willing to continually put in the hard yards and the extras, that people don’t see. It’s not what people see, it’s what you’re doing behind the scenes at 5 o’clock in the morning or 7 o’clock at night, continually making yourself better and never giving in. From a playing perspective, it’s not the guy that plays a blinder when everything’s going well and he shines, it’s the guy who digs in when things aren’t going well, that’s the person that I look for. The person that will not give up. You’ve got to show that resilience off the field - do what other people won’t do. If you can do that - you’ll go a long way.

Thank you very much for taking the time for this interview!

It’s been my absolute pleasure Tom, thank you.

James Horwill Calls In From The UK!

Last week, I was fortunate enough to be able to catch up with the one and only James Horwill, who made some time to call in via Zoom!

James Horwill is a name that's pretty much synonymous with Queensland rugby. He came on board in 2006 and helped lead the team to it's first Super Rugby championship in 2011. He played with the team for ten seasons, making 116 appearances! I made sure I asked him all about 2011 and what he thinks makes a championship team.

He was also a great Wallaby, making 62 appearances (many as captain) before he made his way to England to play for the club Harlequins. He officially retired last year, which was a big deal! (Fourteen years of professional rugby is long time.) He is still living there with his wife and daughter. I wasn't keen to talk about the virus situation too much! But was keen to find out how he's doing at the moment, before we began reminiscing... 

Hey James, thanks for taking time to chat!

Kind of a cheesy photo... but good fun

Pleasure. Thanks for having me! Nice to see a bit of Queensland in your backyard, from here in the UK. Nice to speak to you over the internet, which we’re getting used to these days.

How are things in England at the moment? What’s the situation with the lockdown?

Things are ok. As you said, we’re in lockdown at the moment still. We get some more information about that on Sunday evening. We’re allowed to go out, to exercise, go for a walk, or go to the shops, but that’s about it.

I’ve got my wife and my young daughter here, we’re ok, we’re sort of shacked up at home and get to enjoy spending a bit of time together. Obviously the virus has hit the UK and Europe quite hard, so it’s probably for the best that we stay away and do our best to minimise the impact of it.

How have you been coping since the lockdown, with no rugby to watch?

Yeah, it’s been a little bit weird. There’s been no sport, which is strange. Most social media channels of all teams have been putting a few vintage games and it’s nice to reminisce about that occasionally and look back at games you watched when you were growing up and also games you were involved in at the beginning of your career, it seems a long time ago now… so in that aspect, it’s quite nice to rejig the memory a little bit. Hopefully though, it looks like you guys might get a little bit of live rugby, sooner than we are, so it’ll be good to watch a little bit of that when that comes on.

Would that make you consider coming out of retirement?

Haha I don’t think so. I think my professional playing days are over now - I’m quite happily retired. I enjoyed what I did, but it’s like they say, when you know, you know. I’ve enjoyed my time in retirement so far.

What have you been up to since you hung up your boots?

When I retired last year, I started studying at the university of Cambridge, I’m doing an MBA here, I’ve been doing that since September. I’m also doing some work for my families business which is automotive accessories manufacturer, so I do a bit of work for them over here in the UK. Our head office is based in Brisbane, but we have a European office that’s been based here for a while. So I do a bit of work for them. I played for the university game against Oxford in December last year, so I strapped my boots back on for that, we had a win, which was at Twickenham. So with university and work, I’ve been keeping myself as busy as possible.

I’m a Reds fan so I’d like to start with going right back to 2011!

Sounds good.

Would you like to talk us through that season, from your perspective?

Yeah, sure! It was a great season, one of the most memorable, if not the most memorable season of my career, at any level. It starts probably with the devastating flood earlier that year, when a lot of people lost their homes, Suncorp Stadium was under water, so I think that was a galvanising factor for the Queensland public. We wanted to make sure that when we played, we gave people that had been through some hard times something to cheer about and put a smile on their face, by the way we played rugby. That was something that was evident throughout the year.

It’s a tough way to start, but a lot of things went well for us that year, after that. We were quite fortunate with injuries, there were some big games and it was a season where the team was able to adapt to the way we wanted to play and the way the opposition played. As momentum built, I think the belief built within us and as we got closer and closer to the end, there was a feeling inside that we were going to win this and we just had to make sure we kept playing. Obviously, the final game at Suncorp was one of the highlights of my career, the fact that we got to do it at home, at Suncorp, which 6-7 months earlier had been underwater due to the floods, it was a nice place to finish and wrap it all up. It was an amazing year and something that will stick very fondly in my memory.

It’s crazy to think we’re 10 years on from that. Next year’s the 10 year anniversary and we’re already in discussions to get the boys back together and get to Queensland at some point for a bit of a reunion.

James with the 2011 Super Rugby trophy

When did you think you’d have a shot at winning the championship?

Um - it’s a weird one… I think every season you go into you thought you could win it. That’s the mindset and that’s why you want to go into it. Obviously, Ewen came into it and changed some things up in 2010 and we fell just short of the finals that year and probably rightly so, I don’t think we were consistent enough to make the finals. But I think that was a good thing for us, it gave us more hunger, fire and desire to get through the next year. You probably don’t think specifically until right at the end, as you’re going through the season that you can win it, but I think in Super Rugby, it’s such a tough comp and it’s so quick and intense, that you can’t drop any games. It’s important that play you play at the same level week in and week out.

Based on that experience, what are the important ingredients of a championship rugby team?

That’s a good question. I think the team aspect is the most important thing. It’s important that you have a group of guys that are buying into a common goal and understand that everything they do is for that purpose. Allowing individuals to be themselves and express themselves, with buy in to that common goal. We certainly had an element of that, in that 2011 side. And you’ve got to enjoy it! Winning was obviously great, some of the best rugby memories from that season are from on the field and off. That certainly plays into performing well on the pitch - just that camaraderie and buying in and doing things for each other.

There’s not a lot of difference between the top teams around the world, they’re all great teams, it’s the small one-percenters that make the difference. So I think that camaraderie and the team unity is a big part of it.

Have you followed the Reds much since travelling to England?

Yes I have. Super Rugby is quite available on TV over here, it’s on Sky and so forth. So I would get up and watch at maybe 8, 9 or 10 o’clock if I didn’t have training or anything on, but I would always keep an eye on how the games would go. The teams changed a little bit since I was there, there’s not too many guys still at the Reds that I played with in my final few years, but it’s been great to watch. There are a lot of young guys coming through, which is exciting and hopefully they can stay together and can form the “back-bone” of the team moving forward. They’re doing some good things and I think they’re going to get rewarded whenever the Wallabies are picked. The biggest thing is trying to maintain those guys altogether and keep them in a group for a period of time so hopefully they can do something special.

James and the Wallabies won the Tri-Nations, home
at Suncorp stadium in 2011

What was the highlight of your time playing with the Wallabies?

Um, I think you always remember your first cap, that was a special moment. I was lucky to play amongst some great
sides, getting asked to captain the side for a period of time was a highlight, winning the Tri-Nations for the first time captaining, at Suncorp stadium, that was a great experience. There were some great games along the way there, some games in South Africa that we won, beating the All Black in Brisbane and in Sydney, that sort of stuff sticks with you for a long time.

It’s hard to put [into words]… I was very lucky to play for as long as I did for the Wallabies, again, the experience that you have off the field and touring and travelling the world is always a great experience and something that you certainly don’t take for granted.

Thanks James for your time! Really appreciate the chat!

Pleasure Tom! Happy to chat any time. It’s great to see you supporting the Reds - I follow with interest as you do, we’re both fans now so we get to sit on the other side now and watch and enjoy what the boys are doing. Hopefully we’ll see a bit of live rugby on the TV soon.

I hope so too!

A special thanks to Ann-Maree from Vintage Reds for helping us get in touch. She also helped me get connected with the great Andrew Slack, who I interviewed for last weeks blog.)

Catching up with the Legendary Reds and Wallabies Captain: Andrew Slack

Earlier this week, I had a great chat with legendary Queenslander/world-beating Wallaby, Andrew Slack! Not being able to catch up in person, we caught up using FaceTime and had a great conversation.

We talked about his memories playing rugby for Queensland and Australia and he had some great advice for rugby players today! He also told us which sport he would have preferred to play over rugby, as well as which Queensland Red he sees as a future Wallabies star.

I hope you enjoy reading our chat!

Hey Andrew, thanks for taking time to chat! For those that don’t know, what have you spent your time doing, since your retired from coaching rugby?

Well, coaching's difficult and you’ve got to be absolutely passionate about the game to be a good coach. I liked the game, but I liked the people more. I didn’t fit with coaching to be honest.  But anyway, to answer your question, I was a school teacher from 1977 to 1985, worked for the Courier-Mail for a year in 1985 and then Morgans Stockbrokers in 1986 and 1987.  From 1988 until my retirement in 2016 I worked with Channel 9.

I had one year off from that when I was the full time head coach for the Queensland Reds In 2003.

You played 133 games for Queensland, which is legendary! To ask for one top highlight would be silly. Do you mind sharing your top three Queensland memories? Or top 5 even, if you like...

Top 3 or 5… Ok! Beating New South Wales is always pretty good. Early on, from a footy perspective, Queensland had been getting beaten by New South Wales for a long time over the years I was playing, which was obviously a long time ago... But in 1976, my first interstate game, we beat New South Wales 42-4 and it became quite a “famous” game, because we turned the fortunes and for years after that, we kept beating New South Wales. So that was number one I suppose.

Another thing… It’s hard to pick highlights… I’d say there tours and the memories from that. In ’78 we went to Japan, Canada and America… the times we had during that trip were wonderful. It was a very good team really and we built on that team and had success for several years to come, including beating the All Blacks, ‘cos the international teams used to come through and play Queensland and New South Wales. We beat the All Blacks in 1980 I think. But by and large, my best memories are the tours and the times we had with the players I played with. It’s hard to find three or four or five. There’s a lot! But footy wise, I guess beating New South Wales and the All Blacks is up there.

You’ve spent a number of years as a coach in Queensland. Do you have a favourite coaching memory?

I do, I’ve got an easy answer to that one. I was an assistant coach for a few years, which was good. I enjoyed it. But the one year I had as had coach in 2003, I didn’t love it, but I had one highlight. We played the Stormers, I think they were called “Western Province” then, in Cape Town, I think it was Super 12 at the time. And we had a hooker sent off in the first five minutes, Tai McIsaac was his name. So we were down to fourteen men, without a hooker, in front of a Newlands crowd, which is pretty parochial, a bit like playing Queensland down at Ballymore back in the old days, or playing here at Suncorp now. But anyway, I think we were down to fourteen men and down by seven or eight by the time he got sent off, only five minutes. Anyway, we one the game.

I think we won by around ten or fifteen points. I remember Elton Flatley scoring a try and Julian Huxley. It was one of those games when everything went right, so 14 Queensland beat 15 South Africans.

That is by some margin, my favourite coaching memory and after that, they all come a bad second ‘cos they weren’t many good ones.

Let’s talk about your time playing with the Wallabies! You captained the Wallabies to a lot of great victories! Let’s get this out of the way... when you won the Bledisloe cup in New Zealand, you held the cup up wearing an All Blacks jersey. Care to explain?

[Laughs.] Yes I do care to explain smarty. [Laughs.] So what happened… today, everyone gets a jersey now with the date. I assume they just keep the jersey - one every game. But back then, we didn’t.. we got a jersey to keep at the end of the tour and if you made the test matches, you could keep the jersey after the three games. There were three test matches. So you had one jersey, plus another.

So that third test was at the end of the series and the tradition was you just found your opposite number and swapped your jersey, which is exactly what I did with Joe Stanley. So I’m not thinking “what’s going to happen at the end…” and holding the Bledisloe cup and all that, or else I would never had taken it off. [Laughs.]

People with All Blacks jerseys have held it enough times, so I’d rather I’d had an Australian jersey on. Alan Jones, one of the coaches, got stuck into me years later, but you don’t think of these things at the time.

What was the greatest, or most memorable victory for you, while playing as a Wallaby?

I think probably [pauses] the day I wore the All Black jersey! [Laughs.] So the third test in Auckland in 1986. No Australian team has beaten the All Blacks [at Eden Park] since that day. That’s probably number one, in terms of the hardest thing we achieved. 

Beating Scotland in Murrayfield in 1984, which competed the Grand Slam was probably second, that was a great thing and we felt very elated. But the harder job was probably beating the All Blacks in New Zealand. So the third test in ’86 was probably my greatest on-field playing memory.

Can we go right back to the start of your rugby journey. What first inspired you to play the game?

I was a cricket lover as a kid, more than rugby. I was probably more interested in rugby league, but I went to Villanova where in grade four I played my first rugby game in 1964, it was "Brontosaurus" versus "Tyrannosaurus Rex" and from then we just played rugby at school. Then in 1970, a friend of mine from Villanova who played at U-15s Souths said “why don’t you have a few games at Souths”, which I did. I finished school in ’72 and went and joined Souths in 1973 and I’ve got many lifelong friends from my association with Souths, and now with Queensland and Australia. So it was really just circumstances, I went to a school that played rugby and my friends played and I joined in. But it’s never actually been my favourite sport! I love it, but cricket was always number one.

I used to pray my prayers and I’d pray that I’d play cricket for Australia, but I don’t think God was listening, or he was only half listening!

Who was your first rugby hero?

Hero’s not the word I’d use, but that’s a bit philosophical, I won’t get into it… Probably Paul McLean, who was the guy we all looked up to when I was first in the Queensland team. He was the five-eighth, the sort to ‘super-star’ of the time. I ended up playing with him and we’re very, very close friends and now he’s interim CEO and chairman, he’s got a lot to put up with and I don’t agree with everything he’s done. But he was probably the guy that I admired most when I first coming into rugby and luckily enough, when I got into the team, he was one of the guys that really helped me as well. He’s probably the first that comes to mind by there’s a bunch of others who can probably be in that race as well.

What are some major ways that rugby has changed, since you last played?

Well the major thing is obviously that we played in an amateur time when we had a job and trained Tuesdays and Thursdays and would go away for long tours and that was all a bit more difficult. But in terms of the game itself, I think the players are much more physically adept, much stronger than we were. I never did gym work, I could bench press two rum and cokes at the end of my career! We didn’t sort of have time for that, so we just trained as footballers, not as athletes really. That’s changed enormously.

A lot of the laws have changed. Some of them have made it a better game, but there are some that have made it, of late, a worse game. So I think we need to go back and look at some of the older laws and make a few changes. The foundations are the same, but we’ve got to keep tinkering, because I don’t think we see as many really entertaining games of rugby, as we should, with what the game has to offer. The laws and the interpretation of the laws, I think can muck it up from time to time.

What advice would you give to professional players, regarding life after rugby?

Well, I’d give it to them while they playing rugby. And that would be just to accept how lucky you are, one needs to not get caught in the bubble of being a person that is anything better than anyone else, because they happen to be able to kick a footy or run faster or whatever. I don’t think it happens all that much in rugby, it happens in some of the other sports… but we need to just be conscious that ultimately, although it is a profession, it is still a game and enjoyment is a key for the players and the fans.

The other thing, it’s a hard thing to do when your younger, to think about when you’re older… particularly when you’re playing rugby and getting a lot of money to play. You’re not going to be thinking about what you’re going to when your forty and have a family. I’d just advise that that they need to think about things other than rugby and have something other than rugby, when you’re not able to play the game.

Thanks very much for taking time to chat! It’s an interesting time for rugby and I’m glad we have great people like you around adding to the discussion about where we go next.

Well, it’s a pleasure Tom and as I’ve said to a few people over the last few weeks, I’m by nature very optimistic and rugby will sort itself out. It’s a bit messy at the moment, but they’ve got a lot of good people involved who all want it to be as good as it can be. So I’m confident rugby will be fine. All we need is a couple of Eals’s and Horan's to win us a World Cup again and we’ll be laughing! 

Talking about the future… are there any particular players you’ve got your eye on?

Well, I do think this young Queensland side is looking terrific. McReight, Wilson, Liam and all the forwards, but one guy I’ve liked for a couple of years, who I think could really make a big difference for the Wallabies is Tait McDermott. I haven’t quite fully understood why Brad Thorne didn’t start him, in the last couple of games before Covid-19 stopped things. But he’s a player who’d be very good to play with and the fans love to watch. I think Queensland have a strong foundation now and he’s going to be one of the stars, I reckon.